ODB 4 Instructions

This is where Jason's ICC students should come to post their fourth homework assignment.

Moderator: Soon Mi

In your opinion, which best explains the relationship between language, culture, and perception?

The Strong Form of the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis
1
14%
The Weak Form of the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis
6
86%
 
Total votes: 7

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Jason M. Ham
Posts: 669
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:35 pm
Location: Yeokgok, Bucheon, South Korea

ODB 4 Instructions

Post by Jason M. Ham » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:37 am

Hello Everyone. I hope you all had a wonderful week.
For our 4th ODB assignment, I would like you to compose 1 new topic and 2 replies as usual.
The deadline for this assignment will be 4/22 when we start class.
Last week we discussed the following:

We defined linguistic relativity.

Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis
Strong Form: Language largely determines the way we understand our reality
Weak Form: Language, thought, and perception are culturally shaped (interrelated)

We also defined a fluent fool as a person who can speak and/or translate a language well, but lacks the understanding of the culture embedded within that language. (He/she may make few structural errors, but still run the risk of offending others or being offended).

We reviewed Whorf's claim that language largely determines the way which we understand the world around us, meaning the words we use and the way we string them together have a huge effect on our perception of objects and situations in our environment. Our view is determined by our 1st language.

Examples we went over included the Trukese word "araw" and counters in Korean and Japanese.

For your assignment this week, I would like you to discuss the following:
Compare English to Korean. What examples can you find from these two languages that shows how a concept or situation can be interpreted differently because of the language difference?
Good luck with this assignment. Be sure to read other posts so you don't accidentally post the same examples. :-)

ICCseonhee
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:08 am

Re: ODB 4 Instructions

Post by ICCseonhee » Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:18 am

I'd like to talk about `한(恨)'-HAN.
For knowing about `恨', we need to explore our historical background. First of all, our people suffered from the pain of losing the country due to numerous wars. Secondly In the past women were suppressed and unfairly differentiated by the male-centered Confucian culture. Lastly in a hierarchical society of the past, lots of commoners were suffered from the tyranny of the yangban(nobleman). For such reasons(such as the sorrow of parting, the grip of poverty, the anger for reality..) our people felt a kind of resentment, hard feeling, regret and sorrow. But It's not a simple emotion it's very complicated. It's the `恨' that expressed in terms of a word.So how can we express or translate the `恨' to English?
We can see the emotion of `恨' in our literatures such as nobles, poems and even though folk songs.The folk song `Arirang' embobies the sorrow of our people. but in that case, the sorrow is enough to express what the song says? It's `恨' to be more precise...
Is it possible to understand `恨' for English?^^

ICC steve
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:32 am

Too beautiful vs so beautiful !

Post by ICC steve » Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:29 am

I still misuse those expressions very often. Why? We Koreans are so used to the expression "너무".
In the Korean language, we can use 너무 as "too ~", or "so~". Since that word "너무" has two meanings, we are very often confused about its usage
For example, when you see a really beautiful woman, you are likely to say "too beautiful". In this context, you intend to say how beautiful she is in a typical Korean way of thinking. However, in English, we will definetely expect some negative things to follow the expression"too beautiful" . In brief, while we can use 너무 positively or negatively, there is a distinctive difference between "too beautidful" and "so beautiful" in the English language.

ICC Seunghyun
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:14 am

Re: ODB 4 Instructions

Post by ICC Seunghyun » Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:37 pm

I sometimes watch drama on Arirang TV because they supply with English subtitle. It was on historical drama when I was watching. The scene was that the king and royal public officer were arguing with something political problems. At the end of the scene, one of royal public officer said “성은이 망극하옵니다” which translated “thanks a lot” on subtitle. I think it should be more polite expression than “thanks a lot” because he spoke to KING of korea. Is there any word instead “thanks a lot” ?

ICC steve
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:32 am

Re: ODB 4 Instructions

Post by ICC steve » Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:40 am

ICC Seunghyun wrote:I sometimes watch drama on Arirang TV because they supply with English subtitle. It was on historical drama when I was watching. The scene was that the king and royal public officer were arguing with something political problems. At the end of the scene, one of royal public officer said “성은이 망극하옵니다” which translated “thanks a lot” on subtitle. I think it should be more polite expression than “thanks a lot” because he spoke to KING of korea. Is there any word instead “thanks a lot” ?

I think it's really hard to find the exact expression for it. What the officer wants to express is just " Thanks a lot". However, in our society, when the person in a lower position say something to his boss, especially to the king, it requires something more than just the contents the lower position man delivers: plus, some respectful attitudes should be conveyed in verbal forms along with some body languages. I'm happy I was not born in those days.

ICC Jisu
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:30 am

Re: ODB 4 Instructions

Post by ICC Jisu » Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:03 am

The biggest difference between English and Korean language is surely the order of words in a sentence. In Korean language, we generally have a subject first and a verb at the very end. On the other hand, in an English sentence, a subject and a verb come first and together. I think this means much more than a structural difference. When I talk with my American co-teacher, I can usually get what she's trying to say after listening only the first part of what she's saying, even though it's kind of vague and not exact. But talking with Korean friends or Korean co-teachers is quite different. I have to pay full attention to them because they're likely to say something really important at the end. I am just thinking that is because Korean people want to keep listeners' attention until they finish talking. However, in American way of speaking, probably, they show more regards to their listeners. Again, I feel more curious about whether this aspect of language affected our thought or our way of thinking affected our word order.

ICC Jisu
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:30 am

Re: ODB 4 Instructions

Post by ICC Jisu » Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:09 am

ICCseonhee wrote:I'd like to talk about `한(恨)'-HAN.
For knowing about `恨', we need to explore our historical background. First of all, our people suffered from the pain of losing the country due to numerous wars. Secondly In the past women were suppressed and unfairly differentiated by the male-centered Confucian culture. Lastly in a hierarchical society of the past, lots of commoners were suffered from the tyranny of the yangban(nobleman). For such reasons(such as the sorrow of parting, the grip of poverty, the anger for reality..) our people felt a kind of resentment, hard feeling, regret and sorrow. But It's not a simple emotion it's very complicated. It's the `恨' that expressed in terms of a word.So how can we express or translate the `恨' to English?
We can see the emotion of `恨' in our literatures such as nobles, poems and even though folk songs.The folk song `Arirang' embobies the sorrow of our people. but in that case, the sorrow is enough to express what the song says? It's `恨' to be more precise...
Is it possible to understand `恨' for English?^^

I don't think there is any expression for the particular feeling!
And maybe, Korean young generation wouldn't fully understand the concept. It's a really historical and emotional issue.
You brought up a good topic to talk about. :!:

ICC wonhee
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:12 am

Re: ODB 4 Instructions

Post by ICC wonhee » Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:20 am

I'd like to mention about different verbalism way which is answer with a YES or NO in a same situation between english and korean. At first, let me show you this following dialogue. This is from my own experience when I was australia.

Stranger : Do you speak Japanese.
I : I am sorry I don't speak Japanese. (I thought he mistook me as a Japanese)
Stranger : Oh, you are not a Japanese?
I : Yes (i meant that Of course, I am not, so I urgently said “yes”)
Stranger : Oh, you must be Nisei then.
(Finally, I realize that I confused yes and no answer.)
I : I am sorry I amn't Japanese.
Stranger : What..? (He looked really puzzled. Then I explained again what I meant)

I am sure that you know what I want to say whit this simple dialogue. As you know, when the Stranger asked me that "you are not a Japanese?". I had to say "No" in english. But in korea, for this question, we must say "Yes" it's totally opposite way of answer. Maybe you also have similar experience.
I try to explain and think of this difference. The answer is unclear but one thing I can say that in english, whether questioners ask positive or negative question, respondents always respond from the standpoint of individual. And in korea, respondents should keep their attention to give correct answer until questioners finish their talking.

ICC kyoung a
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:57 am

Re: ODB 4 Instructions

Post by ICC kyoung a » Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:22 am

The meaning of 'Gi' in Korea.
As you know, most families have only one child and they don't scold them, because it's killing their Gi. Then, what is a Gi? According to a korean dictionary, 'Gi' means active energy which includes strength, signs, physical life and power. In the west, people have the outlook of believing what can actually be seen, so, Gi is very unfamiliar in terms of westerners. But in the east, people carry great interest in Gi and it becomes a part of their lives through various studies. Although the origin and the notion of Gi hasn't been scientifically proved, the evidence of Gi phenomenons is being developed. In my opinion, to koreans, Gi doesn't have a clear meaning .It has become a part of their lives. Can you feel my Gi ?^^*

ICC wonhee
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:12 am

Re: ODB 4 Instructions

Post by ICC wonhee » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:32 am

ICC kyoung a wrote:The meaning of 'Gi' in Korea.
As you know, most families have only one child and they don't scold them, because it's killing their Gi. Then, what is a Gi? According to a korean dictionary, 'Gi' means active energy which includes strength, signs, physical life and power. In the west, people have the outlook of believing what can actually be seen, so, Gi is very unfamiliar in terms of westerners. But in the east, people carry great interest in Gi and it becomes a part of their lives through various studies. Although the origin and the notion of Gi hasn't been scientifically proved, the evidence of Gi phenomenons is being developed. In my opinion, to koreans, Gi doesn't have a clear meaning .It has become a part of their lives. Can you feel my Gi ?^^*
I have found a sentence on internet related with Gi(qi). " In martial arts movies, a person who has built up a lot of qi[life energy] can even fly." So if someone built up a lot of qi, we say that he get a hight nei-gong. It is very difficult to explain it. I learned a lot of words related with Gi in martial arts novel such as 혈맥(血脈 : ways which Gi flow inside the body not just vascular), 일주천(circulating Gi following 혈맥(血脈) to improve nei-gong). and 주화입마(走火入魔), I can explain it could somebody try to explain it?^^
Last edited by ICC wonhee on Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

ICC steve
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:32 am

Re: ODB 4 Instructions

Post by ICC steve » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:52 pm

ICC wonhee wrote:I'd like to mention about different verbalism way which is answer with a YES or NO in a same situation between english and korean. At first, let me show you this following dialogue. This is from my own experience when I was australia.

Stranger : Do you speak Japanese.
I : I am sorry I don't speak Japanese. (I thought he mistook me as a Japanese)
Stranger : Oh, you are not a Japanese?
I : Yes (i meant that Of course, I am not, so I urgently said “yes”)
Stranger : Oh, you must be Nisei then.
(Finally, I realize that I confused yes and no answer.)
I : I am sorry I amn't Japanese.
Stranger : What..? (He looked really puzzled. Then I explained again what I meant)

I am sure that you know what I want to say whit this simple dialogue. As you know, when the Stranger asked me that "you are not a Japanese?". I had to say "No" in english. But in korea, for this question, we must say "Yes" it's totally opposite way of answer. Maybe you also have similar experience.
I try to explain and think of this difference. The answer is unclear but one thing I can say that in english, whether questioners ask positive or negative question, respondents always respond from the standpoint of individual. And in korea, respondents should keep their attention to give correct answer until questioners finish their talking.

Your topic is very interesting. That is one of the most common mistakes with most Koreans. We can most likely say "Yes" to the questions wiht negative forms. Why? My answer is : We Koreans focus on the other's standpoint first. It means that we have some obligation to agree to the other's opinion first. That seems to be Koreans' polite response. For example, when you say,"you are not a Japanese?, we usually or automatically say "Yes". It means "Yes, you're right". Sorry. It's my illogical answer.

ICC kyoung a
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:57 am

Re: ODB 4 Instructions

Post by ICC kyoung a » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:13 am

ICC wonhee wrote:I'd like to mention about different verbalism way which is answer with a YES or NO in a same situation between english and korean. At first, let me show you this following dialogue. This is from my own experience when I was australia.

Stranger : Do you speak Japanese.
I : I am sorry I don't speak Japanese. (I thought he mistook me as a Japanese)
Stranger : Oh, you are not a Japanese?
I : Yes (i meant that Of course, I am not, so I urgently said “yes”)
Stranger : Oh, you must be Nisei then.
(Finally, I realize that I confused yes and no answer.)
I : I am sorry I amn't Japanese.
Stranger : What..? (He looked really puzzled. Then I explained again what I meant)

I am sure that you know what I want to say whit this simple dialogue. As you know, when the Stranger asked me that "you are not a Japanese?". I had to say "No" in english. But in korea, for this question, we must say "Yes" it's totally opposite way of answer. Maybe you also have similar experience.
I try to explain and think of this difference. The answer is unclear but one thing I can say that in english, whether questioners ask positive or negative question, respondents always respond from the standpoint of individual. And in korea, respondents should keep their attention to give correct answer until questioners finish their talking.
Your topic make me think about my middle school days. I had different experience, my friend said to me when I answer yes or no she really confused. The reason was I answer like American.^^*

ICC_MyungYeon
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:06 am

Re: ODB 4 Instructions

Post by ICC_MyungYeon » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:22 am

I'd like to talk about korean's unique feeling following the proverb" Turning green with envy( 사촌이 땅을 사면 배가아프다)"
In korea, we have that proverb to expain the feeling once someone is more sucessful than I am . I think it could be used as a positive way. But we-korean do not use it as that way. We-korean usually use it as a negative way. Even we-korean congraturations on someone's sucess . Also at the same tme, we could have other feeling like envy and jealousy. I think we-korean are expressing the congraturation indirectly &ironically.
But I am not sure how to expain if foreiners ask me that proverb. Becasue there is some feeling deepliy insdie I can not expain, maybe korean know it ^^;;
How can I expain that in English?? :?:

ICC_MyungYeon
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:06 am

Re: ODB 4 Instructions

Post by ICC_MyungYeon » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:32 am

ICC Seunghyun wrote:I sometimes watch drama on Arirang TV because they supply with English subtitle. It was on historical drama when I was watching. The scene was that the king and royal public officer were arguing with something political problems. At the end of the scene, one of royal public officer said “성은이 망극하옵니다” which translated “thanks a lot” on subtitle. I think it should be more polite expression than “thanks a lot” because he spoke to KING of korea. Is there any word instead “thanks a lot” ?
I didn't know that "성은이 망극 하옵니다 "is just translated "thanks alot". It is so simple to translate in English.
I think we have various way to express "respective" comparered to English. That's why that is translated like this ^^
Also Iam happy, I was not born in those day as same as steve said ^^

ICC eunjeong
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:46 am

Re: ODB 4 Instructions

Post by ICC eunjeong » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:57 am

There are numbers of difference between English and Korean. In my opinion, one of them is an onomatopoeic word (or a mimetic word). In Korean, it tends to explain sensuously audible sounds or visible shapes to describe vivid movement or state. On the other hand, in English, it is made more abstract or conceptive descriptions by combining audible sounds or visible shapes with verbs. I’d like to show some examples which I translate Korean into English verbs as follows.
1. 반짝반짝 빛나다 → twinkle,
2. 살랑살랑 소리를 내다 → rustle,
3. 바지지하며 꺼지다 → sputter out,
4. 덜컥덜컥 흔들리다 → rattle,
5. 쾅쾅 두들겨 대다 → pound,
6. 이글이글 타듯이 빛나다 → blaze,
7. 힐끗힐끗 쳐다보다 → glance,
and so on. I think Korean has plenty of power of expression in this case. I’m proud of Korean which the Great King Sejong created on his heart and soul.

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